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SCAppraiser

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 57
Reply with quote  #1 

Is it not up to the appraiser to determine if there is a safety hazard with a porch that has no railing?  I know HUD used to have a minimum height, but that it was changed for us to determine if it was a safety hazard.  I have a 6 X 21 porch that is approximately 36 inches high.  It has cloumns but no rails.  The selling agent has said that the home inspector and the insurance company have said that it does not meet HUD guidelines.  You would have to be blind or drunk to fall off of this porch and get hurt.  Any help is appreciated, and refernece to HUD handbook so I can quote it.  I did a search on railings, but found no help.  thanks.

 

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Jody

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 6,789
Reply with quote  #2 

Just do it subject to repair.  You will get an easy hundred bucks to take a picture of handrails.  They don't have to repair it if they don't want to.  AND, if they say you are wrong they get to provide you with the documentation from HUD stating so.  Its a win-win.  Do it subject to.


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Lamar

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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 1,525
Reply with quote  #3 
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/housing/sfh/ref/sfhp1-22

Chapter 1
Appraisal & Property Requirements
Page 1-22

1: Home Inspections: Borrowers are encouraged to obtain a detailed home inspection of the property. Borrowers should research home inspector's qualifications and designations to ascertain that they feel comfortable with the individual they hire. HUD does not maintain lists of approved Home Inspectors.

2: Repairs and Alterations: Deficiencies, required repairs, alterations and/or required inspections must be reported within the appropriate section of the applicable appraisal reporting form. (See Mortgagee Letter 2005-48 and 2005-34)

  • Required Repairs: Required repairs are limited to those repairs necessary to preserve the continued marketability of the property and to protect the health and safety of the occupants, A.K.A. the three S's:

    • Safety: protect the health and safety of the occupants
    • Security: protect the security of the property (security for the FHA insured mortgage.)
    • Soundness: correct physical deficiencies or conditions affecting structural integrity

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/documents/huddoc?id=DOC_14650.doc

See page 2 for the following comments from the above link:

Minimum Property Requirements.  Specifically, the guidance provided in Handbook 4150.2, CHG-1, Chapter 3, Paragraph 3-6, A-7 referencing all-weather road surfaces; Paragraph 3-6, A-8 referencing poor workmanship; Paragraph 3-6, A-11 referencing debris and trash in crawl space; Paragraph 3-6, A-16 referencing steps without a handrail; Paragraph 3-6, C referencing bare floors, badly soiled carpeting and cracked plaster and sheetrock is no longer applicable.   Additionally, the guidance provided in Handbook 4905.1, REV-1, Chapter 2, Paragraph 2-7, A-2 referencing all weather road surfaces; Paragraph 2-8 referencing poor workmanship and Paragraph 2-14, C referencing crawl spaces with debris and trash is no longer applicable.  Any reference to the Valuation Condition form (form HUD-92564-VC) and protocol for its completion contained in Handbook 4150.2 is no longer applicable as well.  Examples of minor property conditions that no longer require automatic repair for existing properties include, but are not limited to:

 

·        Missing handrails

·        Cracked or damaged exit doors that are otherwise operable

·        Cracked window glass

·        Defective paint surfaces in homes constructed post 1978

·        Minor plumbing leaks (such as leaky faucets)

·        Defective floor finish or covering (worn through the finish, badly soiled carpeting)

Evidence of previous (non-active) Wood Destroying Insect/Organism damage where there is no evidence of unrepaired structural damage
 
Jody is also correct if you feel that its a safety issue and a fall hazard.
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Anna

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 1,783
Reply with quote  #4 

thanks very much!

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Jody

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 6,789
Reply with quote  #5 

Dumb question here.  Is a railing and a handrail the same thing?  I take handrail to mean a rail that you would grab to walk up or down something.  To me a railing is there to prevent drunk and blind people from falling 36 inches to their untimely death.  Is there a difference between a railing and a handrail?


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Phil

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Platinum Member
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 967
Reply with quote  #6 
 I spoke with a Gwinnett County Inspector regarding his specific question...his answer was "Judgment"...if someone falls from a porch, they will not fall straight down but out and down...so if the porch is on a slope, a person may fall several feet...If it is a level lot, I would mention it as a marginal height and let the underwriter decide...a home inspector is supposed to go my the local building code not anything else unless it is defined in the scope of work...In my own opinion, I think the rails are necessary...us old folks and children...

MEP
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MAG

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 1,218
Reply with quote  #7 
Throw a puppy off and see if it gets hurt.
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VillageIdiot

New Member
Registered: 05/19/11
Posts: 552
Reply with quote  #8 

I fell down while drunk standing on the ground and got injured. Glad I wasn't on a 3 ft porch, ida died.

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Jody

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 6,789
Reply with quote  #9 
I was walking aroun a house taking measurements when I slipped and fell into a porch. Hit my head on the handrail. Damn handrail. The homeowner said he didn't used to have them rails bit the last appraiser required them.
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BK43

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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 1,593
Reply with quote  #10 
SOME OF THESE STUPID RESPONSES HAVE BEEN MADE BY THE SAME INDIVIDUALS WHO DO NOT KNOW HOW TO APPRAISE A SPLIT FOYER STYLE HOME.
IT IS ALSO VERY EVIDENT THAT SOME QUESTIONS ARE ASKED BY NEW FHA APPRAISERS WHO DO NOT HAVE THE PROPER TRAINING OR WHO ARE REALLY ARE NOT FAMILAR WITH ALL OF THE FHA GUIDELINES.
BACK WHEN FHA HAD A PANEL OF QUALIFIED APPRAISERS, YOU WOULD HAVE NOT SEEN THESE TYPES OF RESPONSES OR QUESTIONS.

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Jody

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 6,789
Reply with quote  #11 
BS....

BAck in the day there were the same questions... It just wasn't as vague because there was a VC sheet with simple checkboxes.  Now who the hell knows what FHA wants.

Since you are soooo keen on FHA guidelines then please enlighten us with both the correct answer and the document that your sourced it from.  I will mail you a crisp $5 bill if you do so and I will encourage others to do the same.

Also, I will send you a crisp $10 bill if you can tell us how to appraise a split foyer and the source document that states how to do it.

Thats an offer you can't refuse.



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Youse_Pappy

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Preferred Member
Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 498
Reply with quote  #12 
ML 2005-48
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MattKent

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Platinum Member
Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 598
Reply with quote  #13 

Jody it looks like you owe pappy atleast 5 bucks


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Jody

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 6,789
Reply with quote  #14 

Nope, he don't get the oppertunity to post random ML's.  I don't see anything in there telling me how to appraise a split level or what the minimum height requirement for hand rails is.


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pnalley

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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1,353
Reply with quote  #15 

Funny how HUD has relaxed standards now that they are holding a crap ton of houses that need things like doors that will actually lock someone out.


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Paula Nalley
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Jody

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 6,789
Reply with quote  #16 
Bk. I'm still holding a crisp bill. I am willing to double the offer if you have an answer by monday
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Jody

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 6,789
Reply with quote  #17 
Hmmm no answer yet. Tripple the offer with an answer by Friday.
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Jody

Platinum Member
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 6,789
Reply with quote  #18 
Are you still looking for the documents? This crisp money is sitting in an envelope waiting on your address.
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