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BChip

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They can EDIT our report? Is it time to fight yet? Can we all just agree we need to come together? When is enough, enough?

2017-10-11_7-10-47.jpg 






 


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pnalley

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That is scary
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BChip

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24 views and ONE comment. The silence is deafening. We are our own worst enemies.

BC

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MEP

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I am not sure what this means but if our data can be changed, in any fashion, what is the purpose of the GREAB and others? Once the report is altered in any way, it is not our report. This seems similar to why it is not a good idea for a new car dealer to add components to a new vehicle...they become the manufacturer of the vehicle. I would like to know more about this story....
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #5 
As much as I hate all of this I interpret this as editing inside their system not our report so they can obtain different results for whatever purpose. 

I can't believe no one is watching the fox in the hen house but I can't imagine this affecting your report directly.

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We argue this: Meanwhile the agent's assistant just did 5 unofficial appraisal inspections they paired with a Zestimate and granted 90% LTV - all guaranteed no buy back.
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MC

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Reply with quote  #6 
Not scared a bit. If you read the information, the appraisal will not be altered. What happens when a report is submitted thru the UCDP portal,there is a summary created. Part and I emphasize of this summary is information that is gleamed from the appraisal. Most likely the things to be edited are addresses. For example if an address is is 123 West Main, and there are occurrences where it is noted as 123 W. Main, it will allow these type changes to streamline data in FNMA database.

The time to have been scared, is when UCDP was  introduced, bringing Big Data to FANNIE and FREDDIE.

Mike

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keith

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Reply with quote  #7 
BC-the disgust I feel just grows like a cancer. Before subprime, I had LO's admit they edited my reports with Adobe Pro. They would change anything it would take to get the report to support their loan. I had one LO who I thought was a friend admit that he would lie to me any time necessary to close a loan. I caught him in several straw man loans.
The lenders have allowed the AMCs to steal my fees. There are desktop products that claim to be USPAP compliant by them sending a schlep to do the inspection for minimum wage and sending me the photos to do the report for pennies over that. No offense to others here, but anyone who has been in the business 20+ years saw this coming and did nothing to stop it. You and I BC are the fiddlers on the deck of the Titanic.
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BChip

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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith
BC-the disgust I feel just grows like a cancer. Before subprime, I had LO's admit they edited my reports with Adobe Pro. They would change anything it would take to get the report to support their loan. I had one LO who I thought was a friend admit that he would lie to me any time necessary to close a loan. I caught him in several straw man loans.
The lenders have allowed the AMCs to steal my fees. There are desktop products that claim to be USPAP compliant by them sending a schlep to do the inspection for minimum wage and sending me the photos to do the report for pennies over that. No offense to others here, but anyone who has been in the business 20+ years saw this coming and did nothing to stop it. You and I BC are the fiddlers on the deck of the Titanic.


For anyone who has LANDY/GREAT AMERICAN E&O

VALUENET REPORTS WILL NOT BE COVERED.

“I read on another forum where an appraiser said that his E&O insurance company doesn't cover desktop appraisals.

I read my policy (again) and didn't see that kind of specific language. So, I called my insurance administrator (Landy). Here is the response I received (and it is specific to their insurance carrier, which is Great American Insurance Group):

Hybrid appraisals (where someone else inspects the property and an appraiser then relies on that inspection as part of the valuation analysis) are NOT covered

A desktop appraisal (no reliance on anyone else) is covered

A review appraisal from the desk is covered

WOW.....eye opening. We can not allow anyone to inspect these HYBRID jobs but ourselves if you want to be protected.

BC


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Anna

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Reply with quote  #9 
Always trying to monkey with our reports.  Always.  Just attempting at what would be considered a legitimate way to them.

I wonder if our clients are at all concerned.




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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna
Always trying to monkey with our reports.  Always.  Just attempting at what would be considered a legitimate way to them.

I wonder if our clients are at all concerned.





No.  They are not concerned.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #11 
Agreed. No one will be concerned except for anyone watching public money backing all of this.  Congress are the only ones that can save us now for the good and integrity of the financial system and public coffers.
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treskirkland

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna
Always trying to monkey with our reports.  Always.  Just attempting at what would be considered a legitimate way to them.

I wonder if our clients are at all concerned.





Nope, why would they be concerned?  As long as they can continue to make loans they are happy - they could care a less about the appraisal or the appraiser for that matter - we are just another obstacle.  They actually have a lower risk if they accept the appraisal waiver than going with an appraisal. 
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by treskirkland


They actually have a lower risk if they accept the appraisal waiver than going with an appraisal. 


And can you believe that?   They completely butcher the appraisal process to make us subservient to a bunch of salesmen and then say "look, see, they don't even know what they are doing". 

Make them accountable for their loans... on the hook the entire life of the loan..  and watch just how accurate and necessary and needed the best appraisers become.  

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #14 
I am floating the idea of informing all of my local clients that If I hear of them doing a PIW, I will remove myself from their panel.  If we all did this, it would make a point.  The PIW's will be a minimal part of the equation at this point, but if we walked away they would be fugged.

I am also floating the idea that if I hear of a realtor closing a loan with a PIW, I will walk from all of their deals in the future.

So... You say the lenders wouldn't care if I walked away.... Maybe so, but many of these guys only have 3/4 people on their panel and I get the impression that my presence is important to them.

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MikePower

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Reply with quote  #15 
Markets are no longer increasing, even in Metro.  Stable, maybe.  Volume is way down and slowly listings are starting to increase.

Sound familiar???

Mike P.
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BChip

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Reply with quote  #16 
If the E&O company will not cover these HYBRID reports then we shouldn't do them. EVER. They are a liability for sure.
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePower
Markets are no longer increasing, even in Metro.  Stable, maybe.  Volume is way down and slowly listings are starting to increase.

Sound familiar???

Mike P.


I am seeing the same thing.  A LO told me last month that this would happen due to the fair.  Something about the fair stops the RE markets for a couple weeks in October.  I've never put it together, but maybe there is a trend I haven't seen in the past.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BChip
If the E&O company will not cover these HYBRID reports then we shouldn't do them. EVER. They are a liability for sure.


True.  But what is the real difference between a hybrid product and a desktop?  On a desktop you are relying on third party data.  On a hybrid you rely on third party data provided by the client.  Seems to me that the hybrid is better data than what you would have with a desktop... Its just that the hybrid promotes itself as the equal to a full interior appraisal with less cost.

How is this different than doing an appraisal and allowing a trainee to do the inspection?

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #19 
I have been searching for a 2nd home in FL and noticed that the market was loosing traction even last spring..  lots of listings sitting and lowering prices.  Meanwhile the AP was declaring the Tampa area the hottest in the country.

Florida seems to be a very good canary in the coal mine.  It could be a blip..  something to note.

Like usual... big data is no less than 6 months behind the curve.  The FED appears at least that behind - sometimes a year.   Guess what else is going to be behind that big data curve? 

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Meatloaf

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Florida just got washed away last month too.  Bet the big data doesn't account for that.  Good news is that no PIW's will be done in areas of disaster.
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BChip

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf


True.  But what is the real difference between a hybrid product and a desktop?  On a desktop you are relying on third party data.  On a hybrid you rely on third party data provided by the client.  Seems to me that the hybrid is better data than what you would have with a desktop... Its just that the hybrid promotes itself as the equal to a full interior appraisal with less cost.

How is this different than doing an appraisal and allowing a trainee to do the inspection?


Simple. Your report is all yours from start to finish.

In regards to the hybrid you are relying on a NON APPRAISAL ENTITY aka third party to provide you with accuracy. How can your insurance cover that. They can't extend the umbrella to that person.

They also have a product where NON APPRAISAL ENTITY aka third party also sketches the home to provide the appraiser with GLA. Mind you these are not appraisers providing this data. 

The risk continues to grow.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #22 
That gets to be a slippery slope.

So, if you do your inspection and your unlicensed assistant took photos and measured the house while you walked through are you covered?  What if they did it at two separate times?  I know guys that send someone to measure and photo and then they go later to do the walk through.

Its a slippery slope.  I don't like hybrid products simply because I think the client is trying to cheat the system.  But for the insurance company to deny a claim because it is a hybrid product is not good.  A desktop is a hybrid product.  The tax assessor had someone (may not have been an appraiser) to measure and photo the house and put the data in.  We rely on that all day long for drivebys and desktops.  What about drive-by's where you rely on MLS interior photos and MLS GLA??

This is something that the insurance company shouldn't have a right for blanket denial.  Sure... If the inspecting party makes a mistake the insurance company shouldn't be liable... But that has nothing to do with the appraiser.  If the appraiser makes an error regardless of who or what does the inspection the insurance company should be liable.  Remember USPAP doesn't even require an inspection.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BChip


Simple. Your report is all yours from start to finish.

In regards to the hybrid you are relying on a NON APPRAISAL ENTITY aka third party to provide you with accuracy. How can your insurance cover that. They can't extend the umbrella to that person.

They also have a product where NON APPRAISAL ENTITY aka third party also sketches the home to provide the appraiser with GLA. Mind you these are not appraisers providing this data. 

The risk continues to grow.


So basically everything I've been jumping up and down about the past 12 months has come true....  

BTW Mealoaf - the above data generator doesn't sound like its a Registered to me...  So the changed guidelines did in fact take the appraiser out of the equation with a non appraiser at minimum wage to take the place of a USPAP compliant appraisal.

You trust too much...  Not that we could have done anything without a union so not pointing fingers.  But the AMC has been the cancer (as I told you) which they uses our money to dream up new products (as I told you) thinking they can make more money if they eliminate us, even working with FNMA/FREDDIE helping them devise ways to eliminate appraisers..   

And we decided we'd rather be unemployed than unionize.  It's not the way I would have chosen to go but we will all have to suffer the collective consequences. 



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BChip

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf
That gets to be a slippery slope.

So, if you do your inspection and your unlicensed assistant took photos and measured the house while you walked through are you covered?  What if they did it at two separate times?  I know guys that send someone to measure and photo and then they go later to do the walk through.

Its a slippery slope.  I don't like hybrid products simply because I think the client is trying to cheat the system.  But for the insurance company to deny a claim because it is a hybrid product is not good.  A desktop is a hybrid product.  The tax assessor had someone (may not have been an appraiser) to measure and photo the house and put the data in.  We rely on that all day long for drivebys and desktops.  What about drive-by's where you rely on MLS interior photos and MLS GLA??

This is something that the insurance company shouldn't have a right for blanket denial.  Sure... If the inspecting party makes a mistake the insurance company shouldn't be liable... But that has nothing to do with the appraiser.  If the appraiser makes an error regardless of who or what does the inspection the insurance company should be liable.  Remember USPAP doesn't even require an inspection.


At least your assistant is being TRAINED by you. The guy with the expertise. Tax assessors are appraisers. These third party folks are not appraisers. They are not supervised by us. We have NO contact with them. We don't know their qualifications.

If I was the insurance company I wouldn't extend coverage to anyone except who is noted on the documents. How can they. They can't.

Slippery slope indeed my friend.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BChip


At least your assistant is being TRAINED by you. The guy with the expertise. Tax assessors are appraisers. These third party folks are not appraisers. They are not supervised by us. We have NO contact with them. We don't know their qualifications.

If I was the insurance company I wouldn't extend coverage to anyone except who is noted on the documents. How can they. They can't.

Slippery slope indeed my friend.


And they have no consequence other than find a new minimum wage job...  And the lender has no consequence as this unprofessional product holds less liability than our appraisal. 

If they thought it was easy to find a crooked appraiser how about a supper skippy who would extend your house 2 feet and call it C3 for a bottle of Jim Beam.

This is so worng.. 

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubberStamp


And they have no consequence other than find a new minimum wage job...  And the lender has no consequence as this unprofessional product holds less liability than our appraisal. 

If they thought it was easy to find a crooked appraiser how about a supper skippy who would extend your house 2 feet and call it C3 for a bottle of Jim Beam.

This is so worng.. 


Those minimum wage folks you are referring to are RE agents actually doing it for free from my understanding.

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treskirkland

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubberStamp


And they have no consequence other than find a new minimum wage job...  And the lender has no consequence as this unprofessional product holds less liability than our appraisal. 

If they thought it was easy to find a crooked appraiser how about a supper skippy who would extend your house 2 feet and call it C3 for a bottle of Jim Beam.

This is so worng.. 


I don't do these products and so I'm not sure what data you are provided, but I'm not really sure how it is any different than relying on other 3rd party sources that are known to be unreliable.  Tax assessor records are wrong all the time.  At least with this product you are provided with recent pictures.  Again, I'm not supporting this product nor endorsing it, just saying that if I was to do a desktop or even a drive by for that matter,  which is better to rely on a recent 3rd party inspection or tax records that haven't been updated in years.  
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treskirkland

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePower
Markets are no longer increasing, even in Metro.  Stable, maybe.  Volume is way down and slowly listings are starting to increase.

Sound familiar???

Mike P.



Some areas and price points are still increasing and shortages.  But, I have noticed more stable area's and higher inventory levels (still relatively low in most areas that I work in).  But, increasing values should cause inventories to increase and thus eventually start to slow price increases as there is more supply.  Also, could be seasonal, demand typically falls off after school starts.
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by treskirkland



Some areas and price points are still increasing and shortages.  But, I have noticed more stable area's and higher inventory levels (still relatively low in most areas that I work in).  But, increasing values should cause inventories to increase and thus eventually start to slow price increases as there is more supply.  Also, could be seasonal, demand typically falls off after school starts.


I personally think the slowdown is seasonal.  The Hurricanes might have caused a bit of a pre-mature season though.

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pnalley

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Reply with quote  #30 
I got a request yesterday for one of these. From a company I never heard of, for an area I never heard of. $100 they provide photos, comments & all data. I just have to make sure it is USPAP compliant. Usually takes less than an hour.

Needless to say I turned it down.

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnalley
I got a request yesterday for one of these. From a company I never heard of, for an area I never heard of. $100 they provide photos, comments & all data. I just have to make sure it is USPAP compliant. Usually takes less than an hour.

Needless to say I turned it down.


Now THIS is just scary..   They need us to make sure things go straight and we will do that to our own demise. 

If we don't fight this right off the bat you can bank it that 50% of us will be out of business in a year.  The rest will be hanging by a thread making a fraction of what you have been.   This is no different than the moment AMCs came calling for our labor..  this is ground zero.

Need to fight it together..   But how?  We have no voice... 

I think our E&O is a really good place to start.  We should all contact our insurers and make sure that they are not insuring these products.  Then we should make sure every appraiser knows that they are not covered for these products. 

If they want to blast forward into the unknown with a BPO then more power to them.  But for our USPAP stamp we need to both to ensure the data ourselves and get paid proper fee.

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Bobby

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnalley
I got a request yesterday for one of these. From a company I never heard of, for an area I never heard of. $100 they provide photos, comments & all data. I just have to make sure it is USPAP compliant. Usually takes less than an hour.

Needless to say I turned it down.


We have to treat this like any other assignment. If it's not your confirmed data & report, why would you put your name anywhere near the report! Don't do it! Like most, I won't touch or confirm another's report or data (exception for reviews).
Such assignments will only be used against us.

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pnalley

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Reply with quote  #33 
I copied this from David Towne. He is very knowledgeable.

Folks………..

 

This is the message many appraisers have seen over the past week or so, which came from FNMA:

 

“During the weekend of Dec. 9, we will implement Collateral Underwriter® (CU™) 4.2, (which includes) the ability to edit the subject and appraiser-provided comparable sales property characteristics. CU 4.2 will also provide mortgage insurers (MIs) with access to CU. Lenders will be able to give their MI risk partners access to appraisal-specific data by providing them the Doc File ID generated at the time of appraisal submission.”

 

As so often happens with poorly written communications and instructions, many appraisers, including me, became alarmed about what that says.

 

Before I continue with this explanation, I want to acknowledge the many appraisers and others across this country who see my messages, and interact with me.   Because this association has many deep and wide tentacles, there are appraisers who have employment at various levels in this industry, with vast experience and knowledge.  There are also people inside banks, others are Chief Appraisers, while some are instructors, state regulators, and owners or managers of associated product development firms we interact with daily.  I appreciate everyone who allows me to invade their cranium occasionally!

 

Earlier today (10/13/17), I had a phone conversation with a person inside a bank who has full knowledge of how FNMA’s CU works.  This individual provided me with screen shots of CU data generated by an actual appraisal (without revealing the appraised property, value, ownership, etc).  The call focused on how CU works and what this EDITING function can and will do….and won’t do.

 

The caller stated that the CU user (lender, etc.), or even CU itself (the giant data base in the sky), CANNOT MAKE CHANGES to the actual submitted report subject and comp data.  This is what was misinterpreted in the FNMA message above.  Report changes can only be done by the appraiser.

 

Where the EDITs are used, they are within the “model properties” which are generated by CU, but may include properties within the report, in addition to the other sales CU finds. These all are on a separate list outside the actual report.   “Editing” is basically playing a “what if” game of chance with the CU “model properties” to see how modifications might change the Adjusted Range of Value – but not in the actual report.  This can be used to assist the user in a report analysis function or perhaps to provide rationale for further communication with the appraiser about making changes to the report.  Editing can also be used to see how the risk rating number changes

 

Collateral Underwriter is an extraordinarily robust data base containing millions of properties – none directly available to appraisers who feed it.  The caller told me it takes just a few minutes (less than 5) for a CU analysis report to be generated after a report is uploaded.  CU also is a ‘black box’ with built in algorithms that in some cases don’t make logical sense when it generates suggested adjustment values across a collection of properties (which I saw in the sample).  No one on the outside of FNMA can pry into CU to see how it actually works.

 

CU is a ‘fannie’ creation, and shared by Freddie Mac.  None of the other agencies we deal with currently have anything that functions the same way as CU.

 

So that’s the ‘update and correction notice’ to my original message.  Things are not quite as dire as some of us reacted initially.


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Reply with quote  #34 
So give it a thought: Now hybrid products signed off by bottom feeding appraisers will begin to feed the CU with information not garnered by an appraiser at all.  Therefore their almighty big data will look as strong as ever but would rather be completely incorrect.

Their whole CU system breaks down when they take the foot soldiers out of the field.   And since nobody, I mean nobody other than appraisers, have any benefit in pointing out these obvious flaws it will take a massive failure to surface this weakness at which point golden parachutes will activate and tax dollars will infuse.

You never know who has been swimming naked until the tide goes out...

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