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Gunnel

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Reply with quote  #1 
From the AMC.  Property has French doors with a 3-4 ft drop, no guard rail.  Below suggestion is from Borrower, per AMC.

"I am needing this Appraiser to contact the borrower and return to the property. I am needing for the Appraiser to Inspect the "French Doors that have no deck or stairs outside" (please let me know if I need send further clarification of what I am referencing here) 


We are needing Appraiser to confirm:
1. The doors are "Key Locked" on the inside/out" 
2. That the key is not accessible
3. And that this is not a Safety Hazard of any kind because of being key locked"


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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #2 
Ha!  No need to revisit the property to determine that... 
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Gunnel

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Reply with quote  #3 
This is a million dollar property.  Guess the Borrower is too stingy to put up a guard rail.
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #4 
Gunnel,

With all due respect.  Your expertise is as a valuation professional.  You are not a trained safety technition  

I would defer their request to the county for code approval.  If the county building department approves it as safe, then defer your opinion of safety on their declaration.  But DO NOT say something is safe just because there is a keyed lock.  A railing is simple.  My elevator shaft has railings APPROVED by the county on the interior.  A keyed door lock would not be sufficient.

Please don't listen to whatever BillDing is about to comment on this thread.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #5 
I don't disagree with anything Meatloaf said but I will add that the whole code thing, who is responsible for looking it up, is terribly blurred.  Some clients I just push it off.  Others I have to do the digging.  If you like the client it could probably take less time to do the research and report back.  If it is inconclusive, as often it is, then provide them a name and number and then push it back to them.  Obviously you are not a safety expert and you cannot say that a lock is sufficient and I would just say the client is responsible for making that determination based on their criteria and tolerance for risk. 

Just be aware of the endless back and forth that can ensue while your AMC score is plummeting if you just push it off and forget it.   Meatloaf I wouldn't mind seeing a snippet of what your "push back to them" wording looks like.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #6 
90% of the time... I say I am out of the office until Monday, but suggest they call the county building inspector.

Never let them know you are sitting at your desk.

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treskirkland

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Reply with quote  #7 
How do you determine that the key is not accessible?  Not accessible when you are there?  That is crazy....   I think common sense would say there needs to be a railing or steps.  


And this is probably the best advice Jody has ever given!

"Please don't listen to whatever BillDing is about to comment on this thread.
 "
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #8 
Truth of the matter is they were too lazy or cheap to finish the area with either a deck or a romeo/juliet balcony.

They want to put your neck on the line for an unfinshed house.

Personally, I would never have that sort of crap in my house.

I have a balcony overlooking my living room.  There is a double french door.  I paid the $700 for a custom wrought iron railing that looks awesome.  They are going to waste your time over something they could acomplish for peanuts.  To me, this is blatant disrespect and I would be happy to advise them to that point if it were my client.

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Nomad

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Reply with quote  #9 
Subject to safety inspection by qualified individual. Someone wanted me to comment on the safety of a pool filled w/ wildlife and stagnant water. No thanks. I have no idea what kind of diseases or creatures could be lurking in there.
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #10 
There are guidelines for what is Safe and What isn't.

To me, there is no such thing as a safe pool...The county disagrees with me.  Likewise, I don't see a problem with steps lacking handrails... The county disagrees with me.  I have also never confused my gas tank for an ashtray.... But if I was dumb enough to do it I guess I could because there isn't a warning sign that says not to deposit cigarettes into the gas tank.

Safety issues are not our job to "clear".  We can point out things we view MAY be unsafe.... But as with anything we cannot deem something safe.

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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #11 
If they're not going to put railings on it, the door needs to be permanently affixed...and a lock with key is not considered permanent.  It needs to be sealed with screws, boards, nails, etc. so that no one can easy open it.  Railings would solve the problem as well, however we can't tell the HO how to fix the problem, we can only report that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.  They may screw it shut;  The may put a railing.  They may put a deck or a 4 season porch on....it's up to them.  All of that is fine as long as it gets rid of the danger. You just have to take into consideration any affect on value their solution may present. Case in point, I had call for safety due to some rotting deck boards.  I assumed they'd just replace the bad boards. I came back and the deck was gone!  I had to re-due my appraisal.
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDing
If they're not going to put railings on it, the door needs to be permanently affixed...and a lock with key is not considered permanent.  It needs to be sealed with screws, boards, nails, etc. so that no one can easy open it.  Railings would solve the problem as well, however we can't tell the HO how to fix the problem, we can only report that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.  They may screw it shut;  The may put a railing.  They may put a deck or a 4 season porch on....it's up to them.  All of that is fine as long as it gets rid of the danger. You just have to take into consideration any affect on value their solution may present. Case in point, I had call for safety due to some rotting deck boards.  I assumed they'd just replace the bad boards. I came back and the deck was gone!  I had to re-due my appraisal.


You had to Re Due your appraisal??????

What a moerhon.  What you should have done is marked "NO" on the 1004D.  That would be akin to doing a report subject to a new roof only to find out they tore down the house.  They don't get a new free appraisal out of that, they get the "NO" box checked.

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Gunnel

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Reply with quote  #13 
I laughed when I read the line about the key not being accessible.  If you can access a space to put the key - it means it is accessible.  I already informed the AMC that I would not go out.  Also told  them that a Juliet like balcony railing would be fine.  AND, since when does the Borrower write the requests????????????  
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #14 
Gunnel.  What you do is lock the door and tape the key on the other side of the locked door.  Voila... Inaccessible.

It really bothers me when folks try to skirt the system and try to put it on us.

Its like when you do a house that needs a new paint job and it has peeling paint all over.  They call you back and you see that they have repainted only the two places you took a picture of.  REALLY?????

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnel
I laughed when I read the line about the key not being accessible.  If you can access a space to put the key - it means it is accessible.  


Tell them the key idea is fine as long as you are the keeper of the key....



....  At $10 per day. 

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #16 
Do this.  Tell them nothing and suggest that they order a 1004D.  When you go out... Check "NO" and send it along with an invoice for $175.  After a couple of them, they will put up a railing.
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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #17 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf


You had to Re Due your appraisal??????

What a moerhon.  What you should have done is marked "NO" on the 1004D.  That would be akin to doing a report subject to a new roof only to find out they tore down the house.  They don't get a new free appraisal out of that, they get the "NO" box checked.

I mis-spoke.  I had to change the sketch and SCA to show no deck, which didn't attribute enough to change the end value.  However, it was a lesson learned.  You call for a cure, you need to halt the appraisal until you find out how they're going to cure the problem because you called for it, therefore you better find out how.  You're appraisal is now based on completion...no different than new construction.  You have to appraise the planned improvements. 


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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf
Gunnel.  What you do is lock the door and tape the key on the other side of the locked door.  Voila... Inaccessible.

Nope. A locked door has a key and that makes it accessible. It still functions as a door.  It needs to be permanently affixed like the cupboards are nailed into the wall or like the rail that is screwed into the wall.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDing

 

I mis-spoke.  I had to change the sketch and SCA to show no deck, which didn't attribute enough to change the end value.  However, it was a lesson learned.  You call for a cure, you need to halt the appraisal until you find out how they're going to cure the problem because you called for it, therefore you better find out how.  You're appraisal is now based on completion...no different than new construction.  You have to appraise the planned improvements. 



Yep, I appraise the planned improvements.  Its too bad you revised a report to reflect a condition that wasn't present as of the date of inspection and wasn't part of a plan.

Your original report was subject to repair, not subject to plans and specs.  Either way, you should not have changed your report as the deck was removed AFTER the date of inspection.  

What would you do if they said they were going to remedy the issue by removing the door and putting in a cased opening and adding a 20000000 sf shopping mall to the back of the house?  Re-appraise it for free?  I don't think so.



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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #20 
I made the report subject to repair.  However, they can repair it how they like. It's a whole lot easier and way less people to piss off to find out what they're going to do to repair it verses hitting them at the final saying "sorry, didn't make value because I didn't realize they were going to do that to satisfy MY condition for them to repair."  You need to find out what they're going to do to repair it.  Will they will they re-roof the house like you'd think they would when you call for repair of that roof, or will they do a crappy looking patch job?
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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf

What would you do if they said they were going to remedy the issue by removing the door and putting in a cased opening and adding a 20000000 sf shopping mall to the back of the house?  Re-appraise it for free?  I don't think so.


Of course not.  That's a new SOW, so I'd call the lender and explain the situation so that he sends over a revised fee on the order.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDing
I made the report subject to repair.  However, they can repair it how they like. It's a whole lot easier and way less people to piss off to find out what they're going to do to repair it verses hitting them at the final saying "sorry, didn't make value because I didn't realize they were going to do that to satisfy MY condition for them to repair."  You need to find out what they're going to do to repair it.  Will they will they re-roof the house like you'd think they would when you call for repair of that roof, or will they do a crappy looking patch job?


Seriously????

So you find out their "PLANS" and rather than doing the report subject to repair, you do it subject to "PLANS"?

I don't think this is what HUD intended nor is this what your peers do.

You base the value upon repair of the issue.  This is a hypothetical as of the date of inspection.  It doesn't matter how they repair it as your 1004D simply asks has the item been completed... Yes or NO.

If you find out their repair plans, then you need to be marking the box based on "plans and specs" not based on "repair".  This is 100% NOT what HUD, FNMA or any other client wants.

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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #23 
  You called for repair of the roof.  You thought they were going to replace the roof and based your report on that false assumption.  So, you're going to tell them that it doesn't make value because you didn't bother to find out how they were going to solve the problem you called out?  Good luck to you.
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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #24 
you can do it your way.  Most do it like that and I was no exception to that rule...until I saw the forest for the trees when I realized the potential problem of that status quo of the peers.

Anyway, let's move on. I don't want to hijack the tread to another topic.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDing
  You called for repair of the roof.  You thought they were going to replace the roof and based your report on that false assumption.  So, you're going to tell them that it doesn't make value because you didn't bother to find out how they were going to solve the problem you called out?  Good luck to you.


NO.

Repair means repair.  If when going back to do the final it isn't repaired in a workmanlike or suitable maner, you simply explain that in your 1004D.

You don't go saying you got a leak in your roof... If you put a new roof on I can give you more value because your house will have a new roof.

Instead, you value the house with the old crummy roof that somehow will magically NOT LEAK.  Maybe they replace the roof.  Has no bearing on the appraisal because you didn't base it on a hypothetical new roof.

What happens when they tell you they are going to put on a new roof and you appraise the home as if it has a new roof and instead they spray paint it with flexseal?  Do you go back and re-due the appraisal to reflect a crappy roof with a spray painted patch?

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MEP

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Reply with quote  #26 
The question is simple...it should have been addressed, in the original report, as "unsafe" and then conditioned the report for a fix...the appraiser is not the person to determine the remedy...I would have gone back out and collected the $. You already knew the answers to all questions.

MEP

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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf

What happens when they tell you they are going to put on a new roof and you appraise the home as if it has a new roof and instead they spray paint it with flexseal?  Do you go back and re-due the appraisal to reflect a crappy roof with a spray painted patch?


Now you aren't at fault, the HO is for changing direction.  No different than the HO changing the plans and specs. They will need to have a new appraisal completed, or at least altered.

Let me turn it around on you.  You reported that the deck had a safety issue that needed to be resolved.  You came back for the final and now the deck is gone.  Let's say that the deck had significant value and without it, you report is not supported.  Do you just say that the safety issue is resolved but sorry, your appraisal is now null and void?

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDing


Now you aren't at fault, the HO is for changing direction.  No different than the HO changing the plans and specs. They will need to have a new appraisal completed, or at least altered.

Let me turn it around on you.  You reported that the deck had a safety issue that needed to be resolved.  You came back for the final and now the deck is gone.  Let's say that the deck had significant value and without it, you report is not supported.  Do you just say that the safety issue is resolved but sorry, your appraisal is now null and void?


No.  I mark the box that says "NO" and in the comments I say that the deck has been removed.  See photo.

Then I take my check to the bank and buy a couple burritos and a tank or two of gas with the money.

Its that simple.

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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #29 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf


No.  I mark the box that says "NO" and in the comments I say that the deck has been removed.  See photo.

Then I take my check to the bank and buy a couple burritos and a tank or two of gas with the money.

Its that simple.


Whoaa.....No???  They took care of the safety issue.  The conditions or requirements stated in the original appraisal have been satisfied.  Yet you state "NO"???  Did you tell them how to resolve the safety issue?

and also with "NO", what about the value?  You know, the part that says: "If No, describe any impact on the opinion of market value" This is the part where it gets really ugly with you client...er maybe ex-client now.  See it did affect the value...it lowered it by the contributing value of the deck.  So you have to tell the client all about that new value.  And guess what you just did by giving that new opinion of value  [wink]  That's right, you just gave them an appraisal.

 

 


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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #30 
"NO"  Deck has been removed.  See photos.  This is considered a negative impact on market value.

Badabing!!!


OR>>>>  You could have said "NO" the deck board has not been replaced.  See photo.  This has no significant bearing on overall market value.

OR>>>>> You could have said "YES" the deck has been replaced.  See photo.  AND THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO SAY CRAP ABOUT THE IMPACT ON MARKET VALUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iT DOESN'T SAY PROVIDE A NEW OPINION OF VALUE YOU DOOFUS.  IT SAYS DESCRIBE THE IMPACT.  THIS MEANS POSITIVE, NEGATIVE OR NONE.

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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #31 

Dude, they want a value, not an appraisal where the value is less than the appraised value due to a negative impact. WhoTF is going to underwrite that?

 
And you for to even suggest that you give them an appraisal where the value isn't correct and you don't even tell them is beyond anything I would ever have thought you'd suggest.  Shame on you.


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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDing

Dude, they want a value, not an appraisal where the value is less than the appraised value due to a negative impact. WhoTF is going to underwrite that?

 



Dude.  The form doesn't require you to re-value the subject.  It only requires you to describe the impact on the opinion of market value.  A description of the impact would be Positive, Negative or NONE.

If they wanted a new value... They would order a new appraisal.

Like I said... Two or three $175 1004D's and they will get the point and repair the deck rather than thinking they can just get by with removing it.

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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #33 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf
Two or three $175 1004D's and they will get the point and repair the deck rather than thinking they can just get by with removing it.

 

ahhhh, kind of late for that when they have already removed the deck!


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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #34 
They can build a new one.  
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf


Like I said... Two or three $175 1004D's and they will get the point and repair the deck rather than thinking they can just get by with removing it.


Ummm...  Yes and no.  I tried that once and worked it up to 5 finals that the dumb agent kept screwing up.  The catch is that the buyer is the one who had to pay for them..  and when they found out they flipped.  I gave them the selling agents phone number. 

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #36 
5 is a lot of finals.  I don't normally get past two... I have done 3 before but I don't think I have ever made it to 5.  Thats pretty funny.
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Gunnel

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Reply with quote  #37 
After the lender's risk management dept looked at my report they determined a barrier of some sort had to be installed.  Did a 1004D a couple of days ago.

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