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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #1 
So what happened to Rubberstamp's thread?
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #2 
Yeah, I don't get why that was deleted.  I thought it was a good oppertunity for us all to learn from and discuss.
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #3 
Hey BillDing - I mentioned a few times I was deleting it.  I'm all too aware that this is a public forum and being such I do not want tricks of the trade being available to search for all to see.  I believe this is how the AMCs win.  We broadcast our intentions openly..   they do everything behind secret meetings.  

In the end I did have it out with the AMC in hopes that maybe they will make better efforts for other order that my fellow appraisers will have to complete



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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #4 

Okay.

I think you're too paranoid about this.  Good AMCs don't take you off a list because you didn't hit the contract, they take an appraiser off the list when they produce a lazy, low ball appraisal and because of that, they don't hit the target.  I don't believe that's you.  If an AMC takes you off their list just for not hitting the price on an over priced contract, then they aren't the AMC you want to work with.

And I don't think they withheld the addendum because of the appraisal.  They have nothing to gain from that...in fact, just the opposite. The appraiser could factor that in from the start and fly it through, but once the value is formed, likely the value won't support it.


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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #5 
Yeah,  I don't think there is a big addendum conspiracy.  I don't think they are trying to trick you into accepting an appraisal that you wouldn't accept because of the contract.

I never look at the contract until I am actually done with the inspection and sitting down to write the report.  Prior to that, I could care less about the contract except to note that I actually have one and it has signatures on it.

As far as being a big fish in a small pond, I don't think my pond is all that small.  I cover two major metropolitan areas and the ratio of appraisers to population is really no different than ATL or many small rural areas and I still have to deal with competition from the ATL market.

But BTW... by the tone in your original post it sounded a bit like you were upset that you had spent a bunch of time working on the report and got them to the contract price they were at and you would have to spend a bunch of time re-working your stuff to hit the new number.... Forgive me if I am wrong, but thats what it sounded like.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #6 
No ..  it was more the principle of the matter.  A contract addendum signed on the 4th and order generated on the 11th should have the full contract.  Yes they were VERY close to having this report returned before they got the full contract to me and then this would indeed squeeze the appraiser unnecessarily to decide to reconsider or not.  Considering that the sale is on the very forefront of market value, actually the genesis of new market value, I always do carefully consider all contracts, concessions, PP, and anything else that could impact the value. 

 When I do my profitability/risk analysis before acceptance it is quick and dirty.  I'm looking for any crazy abnormalities ..  as I do not always know where these orders are coming from.  And I have identified fraud before.. multiple times.  I make sure I know what I'm getting into before I say I'll work for a certain fee.  To elaborate there was not a chance I would turn down that order with a $5000 discrepancy.  Our prior conversation turned in that direction which I was supporting the principle of doing that but that was not specific to this order.

I do see where you could try to trap an appraiser in trying to get them to say the contract is irrelevant because technically it should be.  But the reality is the science is not exact and a value range is more likely allowing for a range of subjectivity that must be reconciled and supported.   Rarely do you have all adjusted values coming to the same dollar..  although understandably in a vacuum that is the goal.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubberStamp
No ..  it was more the principle of the matter.  A contract addendum signed on the 4th and order generated on the 11th should have the full contract.  Yes they were VERY close to having this report returned before they got the full contract to me and then this would indeed squeeze the appraiser unnecessarily to decide to reconsider or not.  Considering that the sale is on the very forefront of market value, actually the genesis of new market value, I always do carefully consider all contracts, concessions, PP, and anything else that could impact the value. 

When I do my profitability/risk analysis before acceptance it is quick and dirty.  I'm looking for any crazy abnormalities ..  as I do not always know where these orders are coming from.  And I have identified fraud before.. multiple times.  I make sure I know what I'm getting into before I say I'll work for a certain fee.  To elaborate there was not a chance I would turn down that order with a $5000 discrepancy.  Our prior conversation turned in that direction which I was supporting the principle of doing that but that was not specific to this order.

I do see where you could try to trap an appraiser in trying to get them to say the contract is irrelevant because technically it should be.  But the reality is the science is not exact and a value range is more likely allowing for a range of subjectivity that must be reconciled and supported.   Rarely do you have all adjusted values coming to the same dollar..  although understandably in a vacuum that is the goal.


So, you are saying that if your sales supported it, you would have changed your value based on this addendum?

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treskirkland

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Reply with quote  #8 
You must not do much new construction, because half the time when I go to the sales office there have been contract amendments which have not been given to the lender yet.   I just don't see how anyone would benefit from purposely withholding this amendment from you.  It causes more work for everyone involved, for absolutely no benefit to anyone.  I'm telling you buyers forget to send amendments to their lenders or if they do they get sent in later and are not all in one PDF, so the lender doesn't look through the file carefully when they order the appraisal and miss the later amendments etc....
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by treskirkland
You must not do much new construction, because half the time when I go to the sales office there have been contract amendments which have not been given to the lender yet.   I just don't see how anyone would benefit from purposely withholding this amendment from you.  It causes more work for everyone involved, for absolutely no benefit to anyone.  I'm telling you buyers forget to send amendments to their lenders or if they do they get sent in later and are not all in one PDF, so the lender doesn't look through the file carefully when they order the appraisal and miss the later amendments etc....


I did mention oversight as a possible cause in the last thread.  Where if I have an AMC taking 30-50% of my fee I expect them to provide the due diligence that I would do myself if I were being engaged directly.

As it is they are paper pushers and their paper is not even correct.  It is not like the addendum was signed recently..  It was weeks before the order was generated and a day after the contract was signed.  I could point out the series of incompetent orders that led to this post.  Like the new construction sales with the wrong lot number.  Or the estate where the attorney just subdivided the land and sold most of it off..  and now they were trying to sell it again to the tenants on it. 

Sometimes you reach your limit when dealing with incompetence.  I've reached mine.   





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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #10 
It's a conspiracy against appraisers, I tell ya!  [sneaky]
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #11 
Yep... They are just trying to stick it to you.
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #12 
I will do the sticking here...
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #13 
Well.... There have been a plentitude of conspiracy theories on this forum over the years but even Bobby couldn't come up with something as asinine as this... The GREAT CONTRACT AMENDMENT CONSPIRACY!!!
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #14 
I have no idea what you are talking about conspiracy.  The details are a fact.  If you fail to comprehend I can't help you..  maybe more college would have assisted. The AMC has owned up to and are jumping over themselves to correct it so the phone monkeys are having no problem comprehending.

When you agree to sacrifice 50% of your fee to a service that is supposed to provide the due diligence up front ... maybe you should expect better service.  I for one, will stand up for myself and fellow appraisers.  Next time an order comes across their desk they will make extra effort to ensure the contract they send is correct. 

This is how change happens.  You need to live up to your tag line.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubberStamp
I have no idea what you are talking about conspiracy.  The details are a fact.  If you fail to comprehend I can't help you..  maybe more college would have assisted.  The AMC has owned up to and are jumping over themselves to correct it so the phone monkeys are having no problem comprehending.

When you agree to sacrifice 50% of your fee to a service that is supposed to provide the due diligence up front ... maybe you should expect better service.  I for one, will stand up for myself and fellow appraisers.  Next time an order comes across their desk they will make extra effort to ensure the contract they send is correct. 

This is how change happens.  You need to live up to your tag line. 


Their job is not to do any due diligence.  Their job is solely to hire you.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #16 
You hire an employee.  I'm not sure you understand the relationship.
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #17 
My bad... Their sole job is to ENGAGE you.

BTW... Ignoring the 20% rule makes you a defacto employee without the benefits of being an employee.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #18 
An AMC is responsible for the information they give you.  In this instance, they provided me an outdated contract that wasn't ratified.   Not much one can do with that...  conspiracy or otherwise.  It is not much of an argument here bc even the AMC has conceded.   

I'm not sure why you insert yourself into the AMC apologist role but it is certainly entertaining.  There are few places frequented by appraisers you can do that and not get your head bitten off.  I would add it is sniffing the 20% rule that has gotten me here..   because my bigger clients don't make these kinds of errors.  I've found myself back in the wild west of lending.

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #19 
An AMC is NOT responsible for the information they give you.  YOU are responsible for obtaining a copy of ALL contracts, offerings, listings, etc  OR you are to explain the steps you took to obtain the information.

The AMC is not there to do ANYTHING for you or the client.  They are solely there to engage you.  It is up to the client to provide you with stuff and up to YOU to request stuff you need.  It has never been the client's responsibility to KNOW what you need.

If you took a document and ASSUMED it was the final contract without ASKING then that is YOUR fault.  It is not the client's responsibility to be familiar with USPAP or FNMA guidelines in regards to appraisals... That is your responsibility.





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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #20 
You are incorrect.   The lender is responsible for providing a full, ratified contract and final version as well as any other pertinent information.  The AMC therefore is an extension of the lender as you are not allowed to engage them directly.

Good AMCs don't just push paper.  They have a process and do not send an order unless the lender provides all the necessary materials to generate an order.  These AMCs somehow also pay appraiser the most even though they do more work.  It is a much more professional relationship through and through.  If all were like this.. I would not complain much.  But it is probably less than 10%

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #21 
So, the client is responsible to know what the appraiser needs????

There is a book about this particular issue.  I have read it... There is nowhere in it that says the client is responsible for knowing what you will need.  USPAP...read it.



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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #22 
You have gone vague again.   I can't help you when you do that.  We are talking about the contract.

When they send you an order without the contract, and you request it..  and they send it.  It is not because they like you.  It is because the are required to. 

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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #23 
No, they are not required to send you anything.

You are required to obtain a copy or describe the steps you took to get it.

If they don't provide the contract, then you can ask the agents for it, the borrower for it etc.  If they were REQUIRED to send you a contract then they would also be REQUIRED to send you a plat, a key, a legal description, zoning, PUD/condo documents etc.  The contract is just another document you are expected to obtain or request.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaf
No, they are not required to send you anything.

You are required to obtain a copy or describe the steps you took to get it.

If they don't provide the contract, then you can ask the agents for it, the borrower for it etc.  If they were REQUIRED to send you a contract then they would also be REQUIRED to send you a plat, a key, a legal description, zoning, PUD/condo documents etc.  The contract is just another document you are expected to obtain or request.



It might be a good idea to not be so smug when you are speaking out of your ass...  I think this closes this discussion.

B4-1.1-05: Disclosure of Information to Appraisers (12/06/2016)

Overview

Any and all information about the subject property that the lender is aware of must be disclosed to the appraiser. The appraiser must determine if the information could affect either the marketability of the property or the opinion of the market value of the property.

Sales Contract Information

All financing data and sales concessions for the subject property that will be or have been granted by anyone associated with the transaction must be disclosed to the appraiser, as appropriate. Typically, this information is provided in the sales contract. Therefore, the lender must provide, or ensure that the appraiser is provided with, a copy of the complete, ratified sales contract and all addenda for the property that is to be appraised.

Information Disclosed to the Appraiser

Financial Information

The list below includes items that must be disclosed to the appraiser on purchase transactions, if applicable:

  • settlement charges,

  • loan fees or charges,

  • discounts to the sales price,

  • interest rate buydowns,

  • below-market-rate financing,

  • terms of any subordinate financing provided by interested parties,

  • credits or refunds of borrower expenses,

  • absorption of monthly payments,

  • assignment of rent payments, and

  • any other information not listed above that impacts property value.

Property Information

The list below includes items that must be disclosed, if applicable:

  • condo or PUD fees;

  • non-realty items included in the transaction;

  • any environmental hazard in or on the subject property or in the vicinity of the property that the lender is aware of or learns from the borrower, the real estate broker, or any other party to the transaction (see B4-1.4-08, Environmental Hazards Appraisal Requirements); and

  • any other items that affect the safety, soundness, or structural integrity of a property of which the lender may be aware.

 


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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #25 
Any and all information about the subject property that the lender is aware of must be disclosed to the appraiser. The appraiser must determine if the information could affect either the marketability of the property or the opinion of the market value of the property.

They did disclose it... I don't see the problem....

OHH... you expected that they would disclose it at the time of the assignment?  Nothing says they are required to disclose it at that point, just that they disclose it.  This is why they still want you to make those corrections to your report even when stuff changes after the effective date.... See regardless of what the effective date is and regardless of other "clarifications" provided by FNMA the client is still required to disclose it to the appraiser.  It doesn't say when, just that it is disclosed.

It is YOUR job to request the information you need.  It is YOUR job to not assume that the copy you have is the totality of all agreements.

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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #26 
Keep chasing down those contracts ML.

Meanwhile my instincts on this were dead on.  Just talked with the selling agent and they were not sent this addendum to review before it was sent to me.  They are not happy about it.  Shady.  Incompetent. 

Do you really think I would vent on this forum if there wasn't just cause?  Anyway, instead of continuing to repeat where you were wrong you could try learning from the situation.  Hold your clients accountable.  They are responsible for sending you ALL pertinent information..  and it better be at the time they engage me so I can evaluate the order or my E&O will eat their lunch. Don't let them slap you around. 



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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #27 
Did the selling agent not sign it?

If its a ratified amendment then it must have the selling agent's signature.  Without the signature it is not an amendment.




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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #28 
You are starting to understand why I posted in the first place.  It is a very lazy AMC that does not ask these questions before I do.  If you are going to steal our money you better offer some kind of effort.
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #29 
So was the amendment signed by all parties?
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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #30 
Rubber...if one of the parties didn't sign it, then it is not an addendum to the sale and you were wrong from the start. RIF! It has nothing to do with your appraisal since it means nothing until both parties have signed.
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BillDing

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Reply with quote  #31 
It also helps to read all of the appraiser requirements of the Selling guide

B4-1.1-02: Lender Responsibilities

Contract Changes After the Appraisal is Completed

If the contract is amended after the effective date of the appraisal in a way that does not affect the description of the property, then the lender is not required to provide the amended contract to the appraiser nor obtain a revised appraisal. Some examples of amendments that do not require the lender to provide the amended contract nor obtain revisions to the already completed appraisal report include:
  • sale price,
  • transaction terms,
  • financing concessions,
  • seller-paid closing costs,
  • names or initials,
  • closing date, and
  • correction of minor clerical errors such as misspellings

You should have nipped this in the bud from jump street.

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treskirkland

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Reply with quote  #32 
So, now I'm really confused.  You have an amendment that the selling agent knew nothing about?   And all of this is the AMC's fought?   I'm still trying to figure out what the AMC has to gain by purposely delaying giving you an amendment that has not even been signed.    Again, I'm no defender of AMC's most serve no real purpose, but it is only their job to send you the information, not to analyze it etc... that is your job.  All they do is pass along whatever the lender gives them.

I'm an agent too, and it is not unusual for multiple amendments to be made all the way up to closing.  It is also not unusual for someone to forget to send over an amendment to the lender as soon as it is signed.  It's also not unusual for lenders to forget to pass these amendments along to all parties involved.  I've had closing attorneys call asking for missing amendments the day before closing.  While, all of this seems sloppy I hardly see how it is a conspiracy, just because I don't see what anyone has to gain from it.
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Reply with quote  #33 
On every single new construction I do I call the builders agent to confirm that I have the final contract. Nothing worse than finishing the appraisal only to find out there was a $25,000 change order. It’s much easier to deal with up front.
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #34 
Moral of the story: Where there is smoke there could be fire.  I've uncovered a little brushfire that started out as an inconvenience but turned into being extreme incompetence by one side of the party.  It felt improper from the beginning.. and I followed that instinct.  The AMC was also in position to correct the circumstance (way before it grew) by simply doing their job of ensuring all documents they are feeding to the appraiser are ratified and legitimate.  Good AMCs do this on every order.

Regardless of the second guessing here..  I trusted my instincts and they were correct. 


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Nomad

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Reply with quote  #35 
I never heard your particular situation.  I got burned once in the past w/ an incomplete contract on a new construction.  It was a giant pain in the ass and I've never let it happen again.  There is a lot of liability in those deals.  Drastic changes in price near the end are not uncommon and I'd much rather deal w/ them up front.  
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Meatloaf

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Reply with quote  #36 
so was the amendment signed?
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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad
I never heard your particular situation.  I got burned once in the past w/ an incomplete contract on a new construction.  It was a giant pain in the ass and I've never let it happen again.  There is a lot of liability in those deals.  Drastic changes in price near the end are not uncommon and I'd much rather deal w/ them up front.  


I know Nomad.  New construction can be insane.  Buyers are often not rational.  They shop and compare to pick their subdivision but once they've picked out their lot they fall into upgrade and change order sink hole.  The substitution principle is out the window because they are no longer shopping and comparing.  My parents are in the process of doing it right now.. against my warnings.  Instead of just purchasing the bigger home plan they are changing the plans of a smaller home by 5ft and it is dink, dink, dink suddenly 40k above support and you still have only 3 beds and 2.1 baths.  Once that contract closes they are immediately underwater.

They are paying cash..  but typically there is a mortgage there and we are supposed to try and make sense of all of it.   With the economic climate of the past 13 years it is not uncommon for me to do a refi and find that the customer is still under water from all the change orders completed in 2005.  And the owner is sure to point out every last detail they changed down to the nickel door stoppers.

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MEP

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Reply with quote  #38 
I have never seen a pre-sale that ended up without thousands in upgrades. changes, etc. However, I usually stick to the contract price for an opinion of value...If you call it more than the contract price, watch and wait for the SP change, that absorbs the difference. 


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RubberStamp

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Reply with quote  #39 
MEP.  I'm going to begin pushing back on that based on B4-1.1-05: Disclosure of Information to Appraisers (12/06/2016)

Contract Changes After the Appraisal is Completed

If the contract is amended after the effective date of the appraisal in a way that does not affect the description of the property, then the lender is not required to provide the amended contract to the appraiser nor obtain a revised appraisal. Some examples of amendments that do not require the lender to provide the amended contract nor obtain revisions to the already-completed appraisal report include:

  • sale price,

  • transaction terms,

  • financing concessions,

  • seller-paid closing costs,

  • names or initials,

  • closing date, and

  • correction of minor clerical errors such as misspellings.

If they are going to make those changes..  We don't need to know about it and I certainly don't want to be rubberstamping it anymore. 

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