Do you check property occupancy? - Georgia Appraiser Forum

We always are required to "do as our peers would" in relation to research, etc in the appraisal process. Of course, in researching the subject property, we utilize GSCCCA for deed transfers and MLS and FMLS to search for listings of the subject property in the past 12 months.

Sometimes, the owner gives you clues that the property is not currently owner occupied. In those cases, I usually check the MLSs for lease listings. In the normal course of business, do you always check FMLS and MLS to see if your subject property is currently rented?

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11/03/09 at 08:57 AM

Heck, I go a step beyond that... (I know, I am superman) I look when I am at the property. You would not believe how many times I am at the property and the last name of the borrow is "Patel" and the man who meets me is middle-eastern but all the decor in the home is for a Hispanic family and all the pictures are not of this guy and his family. Such a thing might tip me off that the person who is the borrower is not living in that home. Or if I am setting the appointment and the borrower is Mr. Jones but they want me to call Mrs. Yin for an appointment. I might ask Mrs. Yin how much she is renting the property for and how long is left on here lease, if I suspect that she is a renter. Usually she will tell me with no thought as to why I am asking. It does not happen as much anymore, but it used to happen all the time a few years ago.

Lying about occupancy is mortgage fraud and it should be treated as such.

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11/03/09 at 10:36 AM

I don't know why we are asked. It has nothing to do with the value of the property, which is our job.

Unless someone tells me that it is a tennant, or I am made aware of it by the owner or tennant, then I just mark owner occupied. Its usually very obvious, but short of doing what brandon does (which I wouldn't admit to doing), who knows, and who cares.

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11/03/09 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jody
I don't know why we are asked. It has nothing to do with the value of the property, which is our job.

Unless someone tells me that it is a tennant, or I am made aware of it by the owner or tennant, then I just mark owner occupied. Its usually very obvious, but short of doing what brandon does (which I wouldn't admit to doing), who knows, and who cares.

Jody, when will you learn that your job is MORE than just providing a number to get the loan closed?!?

You really are the king of doing what little bit you need to get by and chalking up the rest to "its not my job". By marking the box, you made it part of your job. At the very least, you would need to make a comment that you marked "owner occupied" and make the extraordinary assumption that it is correct based on the information provided to you by the client but you did notice that the owner was not the person that appeared to be the occupant in the home at the time of inspection. But that is the only way you can mark owner occupied, that I can think of, if you have reason to believe it is not!

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11/03/09 at 11:28 AM

Well, I guess you are right Brandon. Next time, I will state that a white dude let me into the house, but there were pictures of Mexicans on the wall so it must be tennant occupied.

For some reason I don't think that will fly. By the way, if the owner tells me he lives there, do I even have a right to question him?

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11/03/09 at 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jody
Well, I guess you are right Brandon. Next time, I will state that a white dude let me into the house, but there were pictures of Mexicans on the wall so it must be tennant occupied.

For some reason I don't think that will fly. By the way, if the owner tells me he lives there, do I even have a right to question him?

There is nothing wrong with stating what you have written (other than to clean up the language). It will fly perfectly fine. And yes, you have the right to question the owner. THAT IS PART OF YOUR JOB. You are acting as the agent for the bank. If the owner does not want to answer the question of occupancy, then you do not mark it on the form and you write a comment stating that the owner refused to tell you what the status of occupancy was. Let the lender deal with it, but you are not on the hook at that time.

What would you do if you were inspecting an FHA home and you noticed fresh water spots on the ceiling. The homeowner says they are repaired as of yesterday. Would you note it in the report or just take his word for it?!? Would you alert the client and recommend that proof be obtained or an inspector be sent out to the property?

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11/03/09 at 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon_Gray

Quote:

I would tell them that I am an unqualified POS appraiser and that there are only two qualified appraisers in this world. Mr. Gray and his buddy Mr. Lingerfelt.

What would you do if the homeowner says I live here on the weekends? Call him a liar? If the homeowner says he lives there, then he lives there. Otherwise, you need to get a written affidavit from him on every property that you appraise. OH Wait, doesn't the lender get that information already? Maybe you should make your client provide you with written evidence that the owner actually lives in the property. How do you answer the same question on the 2055 form?

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11/03/09 at 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jody
I would tell them that I am an unqualified POS appraiser and that there are only two qualified appraisers in this world. Mr. Gray and his buddy Mr. Lingerfelt.

What would you do if the homeowner says I live here on the weekends? Call him a liar? If the homeowner says he lives there, then he lives there. Otherwise, you need to get a written affidavit from him on every property that you appraise. OH Wait, doesn't the lender get that information already? Maybe you should make your client provide you with written evidence that the owner actually lives in the property. How do you answer the same question on the 2055 form?

If the borrower stated tome that he lives there on the weekends, I would write such information into the appraisal report. Such a discovery could alert the client to a change in their lending program. That is part of the discovery process that is inherent in your SoW. I would have to look it up, and JB could find it faster than I could, but, I believe, according to HUD a property needs to be occupied a certain amount of time to be considered a primary residence and, I believe, the condition that no one occupies the property a greater amount of time is also a provision.

I do not answer the question on the 2055. I state in the 2055 that I did not do an interior inspection of the home, nor have I contacted the borrower of the property. If the client would like me to check as to the status of occupancy, the client will need to order a 1004 appraisal report. Otherwise, the appraiser makes the extraordinary assumption that the property is under responsible ownership and occupied by the borrower stated in the appraisal report. I might then go into deed records and see if our borrower owns 12 other homes within the Atlanta area. If so, I might change my extraordinary assumptions.

It is people like you that make it so easy to get away with lair loans. "It's not my job..." I really hope that you are playing one of your "devil's advocate" roles here, but alas, I know that you are not!!!

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11/03/09 at 05:43 PM

Quote:

Posted by Brandon Gray

You would not believe how many times I am at the property and the last name of the borrow is "Patel" and the man who meets me is middle-eastern but all the decor in the home is for a Hispanic family and all the pictures are not of this guy and his family. Or if I am setting the appointment and the borrower is Mr. Jones but they want me to call Mrs. Yin for an appointment. I usually ask Mrs. Yin how much she is renting the property for and how long is left on here lease, if I suspect that she is a renter.

I would not have made that comment. It sounds like you are going well beyond your scope of work and that can get you on the 6 o'clock news in a hurry.

Do you really look at the photos displayed in a home, decide if a last name matches up to a certain race and decide whether they are related to the person that answers the door????? Unbelievable!!!!

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11/03/09 at 08:17 PM

#10

Yep, that is right Alan, I have no problem with it. Now, you are right... I do not mention race in a report. But I have no problem if I feel that the borrower is not being honest about occupancy placing it within the report for further review.

I know Jody does not understand SoW, but I assume you do. I, as the appraiser, determine the SoW necessary for the client's intended use. So if my clients intended use of my report is to lend on a home that is under primary occupancy, than you better believe that my SoW includes making sure that occupancy is checked correctly!

There can be several things that tip me off to that fact. I will check deed records and see if that same borrower owns several properties in areas know to be high rental areas. Yes, when I am inspecting the interior of the home, there are things that will tip me off as to if that person does not live there.

Not too long ago I had a guy who met me at the property, I was running about 10 min late and I called him. He stated that he was at the property waiting for me. It was raining and when I arrived he was sitting in his car at the street. We walked up to the door together. He knocked and then waited before unlocking the front door. No one was home but who is waiting in their front yard, not parked in their driveway and knocks before entering his own home. You can tell how someone acts when they are not in their own home and that is how he acted. Usually, if I am tipped off, I will straight up ask the borrower, "How much are you charging in rent and how much time is left on your lease." 90% of the time they just answer off the top of their heads. Or I might ask, "So are you including utilities with your rent or are your tenants paying for them?" Sometimes I will skip the borrower all together and ask the person who is opening the door at the property. Usually, they do not know any better...

Regardless, if I feel that there is any reason that home is not owner occupied, I have no problem NOT checking a box and explaining why. In the case above he would not answer my questions with full answers. So I did not check any occupancy box within my report and made a note of it in the appraisal report. The UW called me and I told her why I did not check a box. Sure enough, when they asked for recent utility bills in his name for the last 6 months, he could not produce them. He even tried to produce bill for his actual home hoping that they would not notice. That is mortgage fraud and without me doing my job and knowing what I was checking, it might have gone through. You report and let the UW or someone else decide. But I am sure as hell not going to check owner occupied if I do not believe it is. I am sure as hell not going to turn a blind eye to it either. I can not believe that you guys are willing to turn such a blind eye.

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11/03/09 at 09:17 PM

#11

Quote:

You can tell how someone acts when they are not in their own home and that is how he acted.

Quote:

I can not believe that you guys are willing to turn such a blind eye.

You seem to make alot of assumptions.......

How does one act when they are not in "their own home"? What kind of a crazy statement is that?

Researching the sales history is one thing, but matching names and pictures in the home to the race of the individual that meets you there????? You must be joking??????

For the record, and before you attempt to put words in my mouth, I call and make an appointment with the contact. If the person that meets me claims to be the contact and the homeowner, and that name matches the owner of record, that is as far as it goes. I don't frisk that individual or say, "hey, how can your name be Smith when you "look" like you are "Asian"? Please tell me that you are either joking or are hitting the sauce tonight. Like you said, I report, the lender decides.

I will not step outside the boundaries of decency to "verify" that the individual that I meet is the homeowner or not. That will be left up to the lender and the loan officer. I think the LO gathers that info up front and on all of the request that I get, it is checked owner, vacant, or tenant. If that LO steps over the line, then so be it. That is on them.

Quote:

I, as the appraiser, determine the SOW necessary for the client's intended use. So if my clients intended use of my report is to lend on a home that is under primary occupancy, than you better believe that my SoW includes making sure that occupancy is checked correctly!

For the record, can you in detail, list a coherent SOW that addresses your criteria for determining who lives in the house you appraise? Do you require that the "homeowner" always meet you there? If so, how do you determine if that individual is the homeowner or not?

I am an open minded guy, but what you have written is disturbing! Please enlighten me on your criteria for determining the owner of a home based on appearance and photographs in the home. I sincerely want to know what you think!

johnmbryant

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11/03/09 at 09:18 PM

#12

I have always checked occupancy status. I don't know what lending rules now but in the old days, lenders would only approve 65-70% LTV on tenant occupied houses and 80% or more on owner occupied houses. When suspicious of the occupancy status, I checked:

Mail on the kitchen counter (I didn't touch it just looked at it)
Phone number prefix of the owner (not really applicable now)
Homestead exemption status
Mailing address of the property tax bill -- if different from the property address, I checked to see who lived at the mailing address
Asked whomever met me what the rent was as if I knew it was rented
Checked "showing instructions" in MLS and FMLS which would say call tenant
Asked the listing agent

This used to be a big deal to lenders.

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11/03/09 at 09:23 PM

#13

JB, I don't disagree with that back in the day.

What I have a problem with is saying if you "look" like a "foreigner your name surely can't be Smith". Or if you are white, how can you have pictures of Orientals hanging on the wall. How ignorant is that?

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11/03/09 at 10:00 PM

#14

Alan,

How dare you call me ignorant. Seriously, I would like to understand where you come from. Back in the day is NO different than today. I would even argue you have to be more careful and do you due diligence even more. I am not acting in a bias manner and I am about as far from racist as it gets. You are putting words in my mouth and I do not appreciate it. I have done many of the same things that John has done. I do not care if the owner is black, brown, white, yellow, or purple. What I do worry about is the information that I put into a report and certify to every time I sign my name to one. I never said that an Asian can not be Mr. Smith. (I even know an Asian with the last name Smith.) If you open your eyes and read my statement, you will see that I question when the person who is the owner is Mr. Patel and the person that I have to set the appointment with is Mrs. Yin. Or, if the person that I make the appointment with is Mr. Jones and I walk up to the door when I start the appointment and I say, "Hello Mr. Jones" and the person says, "No I am Frank, Mr. Jones is my landlord." Then I have reason not to check the box. I do not base my decision not to mark "owner" based on one thing, but these things will make me ask more questions and do my due diligence in what I am fixing to sign my name to. I never accuse the borrower of lying, I just refuse to certify the home as owner occupied unless I can be satisfied that it is, in fact owner occupied.

Ignorant... maybe your AI classes should teach you a bit more.

So what is the difference between "back in the day" as John described and current day?

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11/03/09 at 10:05 PM

#15

Quote:

Phone number prefix of the owner (not really applicable now)

Here is one example per JB.

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11/03/09 at 10:17 PM

#16

Brandon, I did not call you ignorant...but some of your statements sound ignorant.

Also, I know you are a prodigy, but don't knock the AI until you have taken at least one class. It makes you sound envious.

Also, being a Certified Fraud Exterminator/Examiner or whatever does not make you an authority on any topic.

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11/03/09 at 10:23 PM

#17

Quote:

Quote from Brandon Gray

You would not believe how many times I am at the property and the last name of the borrow is "Patel" and the man who meets me is middle-eastern but all the decor in the home is for a Hispanic family and all the pictures are not of this guy and his family. Or if I am setting the appointment and the borrower is Mr. Jones but they want me to call Mrs. Yin for an appointment.

I guess I got the last names mixed up.?????

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11/03/09 at 11:14 PM

#18

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAlan

Quote:

Phone number prefix of the owner (not really applicable now)

Here is one example per JB.

No, but you can use http://www.whitepages.com to look at the home number associated with the address. You can also use it to check out the borrowers phone numbers and if there is a home address associated with it as well.

I stand behind my AI comment and our conversation on the phone. You have confirmed my assessment of what they must teach you, so far, I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. I am not envious in anyway, shape or form, believe me when I say that.

I never said my background made me any sort of an authority. So, please stop putting words in my mouth... it makes you sound envious.

You continue to check whatever box you feel comfortable checking. I am sure it makes some people around here a better form filler. For me, I choose to do my due diligence and check EVERYTHING I sign my name to.

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11/04/09 at 08:02 AM

#19

This thread is making me laugh. Brandon is just making himself look like an idiot. This is really simple. If you believe that the occupant is the owner then check the owner occupancy box. If something makes you believe the the owner is not the occupant, then don't check the box. But I wouldn't go to the extent of reading the name on the mail (hell I still get mail to my home's last three different owners.) Usually it is very obvious if a house is tennant occupied as there are numerous clues. However, if the person in the house is my borrower and they own the house and they tell me that they own the house, I am going to assume that they are telling the truth. I am not going to hire a dectective or read the damn phone book. If the owner lies to the lender it is them that is commiting mortgage fraud, not me.

What do you do when Mr. Smith is the owner and Ms. Jackson lets you into the house because Mr. Smith is in Afghanistan? Ms. Jackson is Mr. Smiths baby's mama and you can tell because there are pictures of Mr. Smith on the wall (per Ms. Jackson). When he returns home they are using the money that they get from the refi for their wedding.

Well, lets answer the above question.... Is the house vacant? No. Is Ms.Smith a tennant? Not according to her. Then what other type of occupancy is there on the form? It must be owner occupied, right?

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moneyman

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11/04/09 at 08:09 AM

#20

Why do you have to check FMLS/MLS on a REFI...when you call to schedule the appt......the owner will most likely tell you if it's tenant occupied. Saying hello Mr. or Mrs. Homeowner is another way I catch if they are a tenant. Then finally, I always rummage through the mailbox when I am leaving just to MAKE DOUBLE SURE the owner's name in on the mail.....sometimes I may even take some home with me, if it looks like it's important or maybe a check!

johnmbryant

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11/04/09 at 05:14 PM

#21

For whatever reason, I have never connected photos and decor with the owner. If I did I wouldn't put in the appraisal that all the photos contained white people and the guy claiming to be the owner is black (or whatever). I wonder what the reaction would be if I put the following comment in an appraisal.

Quote:

The photos and wall decor indicate that the occupants are a young professional couple having graduated from UGA in 1998. The old fart who met me and claimed to be the owner/occupant was grizzled and at least 60. His speech and demeanor make it improbable that he attended college much less graduated in 1998. I can only conclude that this is a case of occupancy fraud.

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11/04/09 at 05:18 PM

#22

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnmbryant
For whatever reason, I have never connected photos and decor with the owner. If I did I wouldn't put in the appraisal that all the photos contained white people and the guy claiming to be the owner is black (or whatever). I wonder what the reaction would be if I put the following comment in an appraisal.

Quote:

I never said that I put anything of the sort into the appraisal report. (Those are words that Alan added into my mouth.) I did say that such a situation might make me ask questions to make sure the occupancy is what I was told it was or what I assumed it is.

moneyman

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11/04/09 at 05:46 PM

#23

Remember to check the mailbox and photograph it's contents....don't worry about that little mail fraud thingie....can't have enough photos now a daze...

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11/05/09 at 07:27 AM

#24

Quote:

Quote from Brandon "Superman" Gray

I never said that I put anything of the sort into the appraisal report. (Those are words that Alan added into my mouth.)

(I know, I am superman) I look when I am at the property. You would not believe how many times I am at the property and the last name of the borrow is "Patel" and the man who meets me is middle-eastern but all the decor in the home is for a Hispanic family and all the pictures are not of this guy and his family.

These are your own words "superman"!

For the record, I did not see where anyone said that you put any of your crap that you wrote on this thread in a report. When I said I would not have made that comment, I meant on this forum. Get your facts straight before you make yourself sound more ignorant.

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11/05/09 at 08:42 AM

#25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAlan

Quote:

These are your own words "superman"!

Again, YOUR words said, "I would not make that comment", Seems like MANY people have assumed you meant, "Within the report", not just me. So don't assume that I need to get my fact straight, assume that EVERYONE in this thread needs to get their facts straight or maybe you need to learn to explain yourself better there Skippy.

You take whatever steps YOU need to in order to confirm occupancy. I still contend that if you are told it is owner occupied and for ANY REASON you think to yourself, "Humm this does not appear to be owner occupied", you have a duty and a right to ask questions and review the matter further. Are you just going to ignore what "signs" that tell you it is not owner occupied and fill in the little box because "No one ever told me that it was my job to check these things and I was TOLD it was owner occupied!" If so, one of us sure is ignorant, but it sure is not me!!!

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11/05/09 at 09:14 AM

#26

Quote:

Seems like MANY people have assumed you meant, "Within the report", not just me.

You speak for many??

Hey "Superman", if you will look, you will see that the only people have posted after your initial comment besides me and you are JB, MM and Jody.
I did not read where any of them referenced me saying that you put any of your "methods" in your report.

Just like your method for determining owner occupancy, you are filling in the blanks in your own mind. You continue to sound foolish.

BTW, I thought you said you were going the way of WEDA. When can we expect that to happen?

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11/05/09 at 09:27 AM